#73: Why Your Inquiry Process Is Costing You Clients (And How to Fix It) with Sandra Henderson

Kevin Dennis (: 00:38

All right, folks, welcome to another episode of Mind Your Wedding Business. And today I'm here with Sandra Henderson. Hi, Sandra. How are you doing today?

Sandra (: 00:46

Good, thanks. How are you?

Kevin Dennis (: 00:47

Good, good, good. And she's with Simply Sandra Yvonne. And today we're going to be talking about why your inquiry process is costing you clients and how to fix it. So I think a lot of people would like to know the how to fix it part. So, well, I think they also are going to want to know what's broken as well. So, but Sandra.

Sandra (: 01:03

Yeah, absolutely,

but heavy on the fixing part.

Kevin Dennis (: 01:06

All right, I love it. All right.

⁓ So Sandra, before we jump in, can you tell us a little about yourself and how we got you here today?

Sandra (: 01:14

Yeah, absolutely. So like Kevin said, my name is Sandra. I am a photography system strategist. And before this, I was actually a wedding and family photographer for 12 years when I retired. So I have a lot of experience in the industry. And one thing that I always really loved besides, of course, being behind my camera was just

Kevin Dennis (: 01:27

wow.

Sandra (: 01:36

finding ways to simplify and streamline the back end of my business. And I had to really start to take that seriously in 2020 when chronic illness became a huge part of my life and something that I have to navigate every single day. And so I had to really take the time to think about like how I was going to keep going in an industry that requires so much of us physically and mentally day in and day out and still be able to keep doing that with.

Kevin Dennis (: 01:59

Yeah.

Sandra (: 02:03

also taking some things off my plate. And so that's really where systems and workflows started to play a huge role in how I ran my business. And it's something that just kind of clicked and I became really, really passionate about and helping other photographers do that as well. So that was kind of the perfect transition for me as I did retire out of photography. ⁓

as a lot of photographers will know if you've ever debated on retiring, that a lot of times the retirement is just kind of like the word on paper. So I closed down my business, but I do still have another wedding booked this year. I do still have some family clients that reach out to me for photos. So it's just, you know, it's part of you. It's hard to really fully let go. But what I'm spending my days doing for my now nine to five, which is a new

time of day and path to be working in compared to the evenings and weekends that I was used to is that I'm working with photographers and wedding professionals, helping them kind of do the same thing with simplifying and streamlining the back end of their businesses. So that way, no matter what life decides to throw your way, whether it's chronic illness like I'm dealing with, or you're a parent or a caregiver, if you have another full-time job or life just decides to get really lifey, which it tends to do.

⁓ you know that you can take that time and energy to focus on other places and your business isn't gonna suffer. It's gonna keep thriving no matter what else you have going on. And I think that's so important for business owners as a whole, but especially for photographers who have this dream of this business that they've created and they wanna see it go long-term.

Kevin Dennis (: 03:41

mhm Well, it's funny, I was going to ask you too, do you pick up the camera for fun? So obviously you still do pick it up. I, I, guess. Yeah.

Sandra (: 03:48

Yeah, absolutely. It was more just a formal retirement, but I like I had people

asking like, you gonna be selling your camera gear? I'm like, no, no, no. I'm still technically a photographer.

Kevin Dennis (: 03:55

There you go.

Alright. All right. So Sandra, so what really happens behind the scenes when wedding pros say they're getting inquiries, but not bookings?

Sandra (: 04:09

Yeah, I think the biggest thing that happens is a lot of photographers, especially in the wedding industry, they really, really want to give that personal experience. And I think that that's going to be something that we're seeing even more ⁓ as people are leaning more into AI and things like that as the photographers who really want to give that personal hands-on experience. And so a lot of people do default to thinking that in order to do that, you have to do everything manually.

So when you receive a wedding inquiry, you have to be the one that responds personally so that they know it's not a robot that's emailing them back. They know that it's a real human. You want to build that friendship connection with them. And I totally get that, totally respect all of that. But what I would love to see photographers kind of shift in their mind is that you can actually still give that experience while leaning into automation and work flows so that

your clients are all getting that same consistent experience across the board and you don't necessarily have to be tied to your computer and your inbox 24 seven. ⁓ And so one thing that happens when you are responding to all of these inquiries manually is you you might respond to one person at 10 a.m. on Monday morning you're still shaking off the weekend you're a little tired and froggy so let's let's break that response maybe like a seven out of ten.

Kevin Dennis (: 05:17

Yeah.

Sandra (: 05:36

But then you send a response on Wednesday afternoon and you're fired up. You are not a morning person. You get your energy in the middle of the day. So this response is everything that you want it to be. And things are great. And then on Friday, you happen to be at your computer late. You send a reply to an inquiry around 1130 at night. You get the wedding date wrong. You get the couple's name wrong.

Kevin Dennis (: 05:40

You

geez. ⁓

Sandra (: 05:58

You start missing all

of these things because you're overworked, it's the end of the week, you're thinking about the wedding that you're about to go into. There are all these things that can factor into doing all of those responses manually. And so even if you are essentially delivering the same message with every single response, those clients aren't all getting, or potential clients aren't all getting the same experience. They're all getting different versions of you based on your energy levels, the time of day, what else you have going on.

Kevin Dennis (: 06:09

Hmm.

Sandra (: 06:25

And so when you set up email templates that you've written and they sound like you, they're in your voice, you can deliver that information and still give everybody that consistent experience, no matter what time of day it is or how you happen to be feeling that day. So I think that that is one area that photographers, I'm pretty much across the board every photographer that I've worked with, this is where ⁓ my biggest and like number one recommendation comes in for them is to take a look

Kevin Dennis (: 06:53

Mm-hmm.

Sandra (: 06:55

at what it means to be delivering that personal experience when they are replying to that inquiry and if it has to be manual or if it can be something that's automated with a personal experience added in after.

Kevin Dennis (: 07:10

No, that was very interesting. was like trying to like go through and how we do it here. And I'm like, but you had lots of good scenarios. Yeah, everyone's like exhausted on Monday, but have the energy on Wednesday. And then I'm like, yeah, then really like, oh God, I got a lot of work, you know, like really then focus on what's going on on the weekend. So I can see how everyone gets a different experience. And I've never ever, ever, ever thought about it that way. So.

Sandra (: 07:33

Mm-hmm.

And I have

ody's name wrong because it's: 1130

Kevin Dennis (: 07:46

No.

Yeah.

Sandra (: 08:06

Nothing good is going to happen. My brain is shutting down. I need to rest. And so ⁓ that was another reason why I really had to kind of take a look at my own inquiry experience. And that's when I started implementing things like auto responders and templates and things like that.

Kevin Dennis (: 08:22

I know and sometimes I like I'm guilty of this myself where I'm like I'm gonna get a few things done tonight after the kids go to bed and I open my laptop and I'm absolutely get nothing done because I'm like like you said I'm in brain mush mode so I've learned I don't do that anymore so it's it's not it's not a good good way to run it so anyway

Sandra (: 08:39

Right? And I think

it's so important for business owners and photographers to kind of find the time that works best for them. I went through a huge period when I was first starting my business where I felt like if I was awake, I had to be working. And it was like just this weird mentality that I had. And I did get to the point like you were just saying, like with my brain turning into a pumpkin where I had to recognize that the work that I was doing, even if I was getting anything done, it was not of any quality.

Kevin Dennis (: 08:53

Yeah.

Sandra (: 09:08

And I more often had to go back and fix it the next day or, you know, apologize for calling someone the wrong name or whatever the case may be. ⁓ And so I talked to a lot of business owners about not trying to force yourself to work in a time that you are just told that that's when everybody works. Like, you you hear a lot of photographers talking about how they work late at night and they're always up late into the middle of the night.

Kevin Dennis (: 09:08

No.

Sandra (: 09:34

where I eventually learned that I did my best work first thing in the morning. I, fortunately, my body decided I was going to be a morning person. It wasn't by choice. But sometimes your body's just like, you're going to start getting up at 6 a.m. now. ⁓ And so I just kind of took advantage of that and got my editing done then. And I just clocked out in the evening. And so I think it takes a little bit of kind of like

Kevin Dennis (: 09:42

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sandra (: 09:55

self-reflection and just kind of recognizing when you do your best work and giving yourself permission to lean into that instead of trying to force yourself into some sort of structure that just isn't going to work for you.

Kevin Dennis (: 10:08

Yeah, that's a good point. So all right, Sandra. So at what point in the inquiry process do you see like most businesses, you know, start losing potential clients?

Sandra (: 10:18

I honestly think it's right away, right when that contact form is filled in and that response or sorry, you receive that information from your contact form or you receive an email from a client. I am going to go with the contact form example for this because it leads into the next one. But the reason why I say that is because there have been studies. Now, the most recent study I saw was 2023 or 2024. So it is a little bit outdated right now, but

Kevin Dennis (: 10:21

wow.

Sandra (: 10:47

Visa and HoneyBook partnered to do a study. And at the time, the results showed that 81 % of people were most likely to hire somebody that was the first person to respond to them. And so in the photography world, that has nothing to do with your portfolio. It has nothing to do with how much you charge. It has nothing to do with what your branding looks like or how popular you are on Instagram. It literally comes down to being the first person to reply. And

Kevin Dennis (: 10:59

Mmm.

Sandra (: 11:16

So for all of those people that are sending those replies manually, it almost is kind of like validation for them that they have to keep doing it this way because they have to be that first person to land in the inbox. But what really starts to happen in that scenario is you end up feeling like you have to be available 24 7 3 65 for every single person that inquires with you. I've been with friends who

hold over while driving so that they could respond to an email because they saw an inquiry come in and just having this sense of urgency and this like sense of scarcity that if they don't reply right away, they're going to lose the booking. And that's fair when you see a number like 81 % of people are going to book the first person that replies. And so that's where autoresponders come in and autoresponders

Kevin Dennis (: 11:44

my gosh.

Sandra (: 12:04

⁓ Anybody who I'm almost 40 now, anybody who's my age, we saw the golden age of autoresponders where they were super stiff and corporate and nobody liked getting them. It was just an annoyance in your inbox. But when you're using a CRM, especially one like HoneyBook or Dubsado, and you can build out really on brand documents that you can send out to your clients.

you can use that autoresponder as a way to begin the client journey or continue the client journey because it actually started when they landed on your website. And not only give them the information that they're looking for, but start setting the groundwork for what your boundaries are, how you work, and things like that.

Kevin Dennis (: 12:34

Mm.

Sandra (: 12:44

the autoresponder kind of workflow that I usually recommend is as soon as that contact form is filled out, have an autoresponder go out right away that actually includes your pricing guide. And I recommend doing this because anybody who's

filled out your contact form, they have already looked through your website. They already know that you at least have a starting at price that is going to work for them if you have that on your website. If you don't, they know that they like your portfolio. There's something that has brought them to the point of filling out your contact form. So when you send information back or when you send an email back, you can take it up a level from just saying, hi, I got your inquiry. I'll be in touch soon.

Attach your pricing guide and that's giving them the information that you know they're looking for. They're inquiring because they want to know how much it's going to cost for them to hire you. Inside that pricing guide, you can also include frequently asked questions and start giving them answers to questions before they've even asked. And that really makes such a huge difference in the client experience and is going to set you apart from other people that are replying manually or that have just a generic autoresponder.

And that way you can also keep it on brand. You can include additional information. So with my auto responder and pricing guide, there was also links in there that somebody can book a consultation if they wanted to. I had my consultations available for in-person, online or over the phone. I like to give lots of options and flexibility there. I'd say about 98 % of people by the time in the last two to three years of my business all went with virtual calls, they all wanted to do it online.

Kevin Dennis (: 14:08

⁓

Sandra (: 14:25

But I did offer the in-person option because there's a coffee shop right around the corner from my house, so that made it nice and easy. ⁓ But giving them the ability to do that, they can walk themselves through your pricing, they can find out how you work, get information about you, get answers to questions that they're going to be asking in the future, or maybe they see a question and they're like, I didn't even think about that. Really just sets you apart and sets the tone in a really good way for them.

Kevin Dennis (: 14:47

Hmm.

Sandra (: 14:52

and then they get to the end and there is a link for them to book a consultation with you. And it could be two o'clock in the morning that they are looking at this because they work a midnight shift or they're a student, whatever the case may be. And that's why I really love online booking calendars is because you can set them up so it's your availability. They can't just book any time, any day. It's still structured. So this is when I'm available.

a new hairstylist and it was: 1130

Kevin Dennis (: 15:23

Yeah.

Mmm.

Sandra (: 15:45

I was going to have to wait until Monday morning until they opened to call and book an appointment. The fact that this one stylist who I really liked her work had the ability to book online was what sold me. So giving your clients all these kinds of options to be able to still interact with you within your boundaries and when your availability is, but do it on their time almost shows them like a level of respect in a way because you're respecting their time and that they have other things going on.

and they might not necessarily be available every second that you are also available. So I think that setting up that kind of flexibility is really important and goes a really long way.

Kevin Dennis (: 17:02

Yeah, that was a good point. when you were saying about the booking online, I tend to, when I'm looking for something, the more information I can get, the deeper I will go with the company when I'm doing some research on someone new. that was a good point. So all right, Sandra, what are some common mistakes that you see wedding pros make between the initial inquiry form and then trying to get them over to convert into a contract?

Sandra (: 17:14

Yeah, absolutely.

Kevin Dennis (: 17:31

you know, what's hurting that conversion?

Sandra (: 17:35

I think a big one is not following up. And I see a lot of conversations online recently, I'd say in the last six months, especially I live on threads, it's my favorite social media platform. I don't even bother with anywhere else anymore. But I've seen a lot of conversations there about whether or not you should follow up. A lot of photographers feeling like if someone actually did wanna book you, they would be responding, they wouldn't be ghosting, you wouldn't have to follow up with them.

Kevin Dennis (: 17:46

Hehehehehe

Sandra (: 18:03

that it's waste of time if you are doing these follow ups, which again are all valid reasons. But when you really start to lean into things like workflows, templates and automations, you can again give that experience to a potential client and set yourself apart from other people while also putting minimal work on your plate.

An example of this, I have worked with a few clients building their workflows, but also as a virtual assistant, online business manager. So I've had my hands in people's inboxes. And one thing that I see happen a lot is when you have a follow-up process, I would say probably 98 % of the time, you're not gonna get a response. And that's totally fine, that's totally normal. But that other 2 % of the time,

could be a huge booking. And I have seen people book weddings that hit their highest package on the fourth or fifth follow-up email. And so one thing I really recommend doing if you don't have a follow-up process or if you're wanting to just spruce yours up a little bit is to write yourself some email templates. And that way when you are following up with a client, whether they ghosted or you were talking to them and just wanted to check in and see how things were going,

When you have these email templates, it only takes you maybe five seconds for you to fill it out and send it off to your client, especially if you are using a CRM system or you can just pull up that template. If you are using Gmail or whatever email platform it is, it's as simple as just copying that template over into a new email and then sending it. So a few seconds in total, if you're sending three or four follow-up emails and you're spending

five seconds on each of them, that's only 15 to 20 seconds that you're spending on somebody who's ghosted. So it's really not that huge of a deal to follow up with people even if they aren't responding to you. And I think that while it is nice for us to get those emails from potential clients who say we've decided to go elsewhere, I also don't think that they owe that to us. We all get busy. We all get distracted. There's a million reasons why you might not be hearing back from somebody.

So with that follow-up process, that 20 extra seconds that you're spending on potentially getting another booking, it can really be so important, especially like there are so many people, especially adults my age who are finding out later in life that they are neurodivergent, getting diagnosed with ADHD and things like that, having kids and mom brain and all the things. It is so easy for things to slip people's mind. And I can't tell you even myself,

Kevin Dennis (: 20:40

Yeah.

Sandra (: 20:42

When I get a follow-up from somebody that I've completely forgotten about, I'm like, my gosh, thank you so much for following up or like it probably would have been another month before you heard from me. So things like that really can go a long way. And while I do get that it can be frustrating, especially if you've been ghosted a whole bunch or your calendar isn't where you want it to be or anything like that, there is definitely still value in that follow-up process. So I definitely recommend photographers.

at least get one or two follow-ups set up.

Kevin Dennis (: 21:13

I was so lots of follow up questions there. one don't I took from that. It's like don't get don't take it personal if they're ghosting you, you know, like don't yeah. Yeah, you can't get that because you don't know where there are like you said, you know what's going on in their life. But is there a magic number for follow ups? Like, you know, when when do you give up?

Sandra (: 21:22

Yes, absolutely.

So personally, I give up after three follow-ups. As far as a magic number, you're going to find that opinion varies depending on who you're talking to. I've seen people recommend following up as many as 12 to 15 times, which personally I think is insane. And if you ever follow up with me 15 times, I'm probably going to block you. And so I personally go with three. So the initial contact form gets

Kevin Dennis (: 21:52

Hehehehehe

Sandra (: 22:00

filled out and then they'll receive my autoresponder right away. And that includes my pricing guide has tons of extra information and a booking link. And then if I are whether or not I hear back from them, I send a personal email usually like one to two business days. ⁓ And that lets them know like, hey, a real person did actually receive your email, you got the autoresponder and I let them know in that autoresponder like

I'll be in touch myself within one to two business days. Like I'm not trying to fool them that it was me that was responding within a couple seconds. Make it very clear to them this is an auto responder, but it's still very conversational. Let's them know, thanks for reaching out. Here's my business hours. Like let them know when they're going to hear back from me so that they don't just fill out the contact form and then are just sitting left in limbo wondering when and if they'll hear back.

Kevin Dennis (: 22:31

Yeah.

Sandra (: 22:49

So that autoresponder goes out right away, lets them know when they're going to hear back from me. I send that personal email within one to two business days and that reiterates if I'm available for their wedding date, reattaches my pricing guide in case they didn't look at it the first time and asks them if they have any questions. If they don't respond to me after that point, then I have two additional follow-ups that will go out. So one was...

will be just kind of checking in. Do you have any questions, any hesitations, anything like that? The next one is more of just kind of like a friendly, totally no rush. Here's a couple blogs that might help with your wedding planning process. Now that I've switched over into system strategy, I usually include some podcast links and things like that, like something that's going to help them.

So I'm not just kind of taking up space in their inbox. There's actually something that's going to benefit them if they open the email. And then if I still don't hear back, the last email is something called the magic email. I didn't make this up, but if you just Google the magic email, you will find it. And the idea behind this is to just send one final email that lets somebody know, I haven't heard back from you. I assume you've gone in a different direction or your plans have changed.

Kevin Dennis (: 23:44

value.

Sandra (: 24:06

if you do want to reach out again anytime by all means, but for now I will just close your file and I wish you all the best. ⁓ And I have actually booked multiple family clients after sending that email. So it seems a little final and I remember the first times I started using it that I kind of felt a little weird about it. It felt a little ⁓ like blunt or brash for my brand. So I did end up like boosting up the concept a little bit so it sounded a little bit more like me.

Kevin Dennis (: 24:14

Yeah.

Sandra (: 24:35

But I yeah, I booked multiple sessions family sessions after sending that email And I've had clients who have booked weddings after sending that email. So there's definitely some value in it for sure and if it even if I have you know, 20 people that I had to Spend 20 seconds emailing for them not to reply and then I have one person that I spend that 20 seconds and then they have a $6,000 booking well, then those 20 seconds really like

They're worth it.

Kevin Dennis (: 25:05

100%. Yeah, that's where

I think people miss the boat. I like, we started doing some kind of humorous email at the end, just to, you know, like, just to kind of wrap it up. And we do get bookings, you know, like you said, they're like, oh my god, yes. I've seen all your follow ups. We've been busy. But, you know, it's like, Hey, please don't, you know, don't close our file, you know, you know, and you get those. Yeah, yeah. Because, again, you don't know where people are. So, yeah.

Sandra (: 25:28

Exactly.

Mm hmm. Yeah, exactly.

And I think it just shows, again, respect for their time. You let them know, like, I'm not going to keep blowing up your inbox. Doors open. If you want to reach out again, I would love to hear from you. But we're just going to kind of put a little cherry on top of this and go our separate ways. And I think it's just a really nice and respectful way to end it. And like you were saying before, like not taking the whole situation personally if they haven't responded to you.

Kevin Dennis (: 25:58

Yeah,

I think that's where a lot of wedding pros go wrong is that they do take it personal. We take everything personal in the wedding industry. all right, one more follow-up question to the other questions is the inquiry form. We talked about the contact inquiry form. I've heard less is more. Now it's getting back to you want more. People want to give more information. What should that form look like?

Sandra (: 26:04

Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.

I think there's definitely a happy medium. Now I have heard that there are studies that have shown that nine questions in a survey is like a magic number. Now I don't know exactly if that translates over to contact forms, but it's something that's just kind of always stuck with me since I heard it. There's apparently like a lot of studies in psychology and science has gone into that number. And so I kind of like...

Kevin Dennis (: 26:46

Mm-hmm.

Sandra (: 26:54

sort of use that as my guiding line a little bit, even with my contact form. I think it's really important to ask a broad selection of questions while also not giving the potential client a whole like, you know, two hour form that they have to fill out to be able to reach out to you. So for weddings, of course, we want to be asking the wedding date. That's super important. I also like to ask for the location or venue.

especially if you are someone who travels, that's really important to get that information upfront. ⁓ I did go through a small period where I didn't have that on my form and it's a frustrating part of the process for everybody, but especially the client when you go through days of conversation and then all of a sudden you find out that the wedding is four or five hours away from you and it changes everything about your pricing structure and things like that. So I'm definitely wanting to make sure you get that information upfront.

Kevin Dennis (: 27:44

Yeah.

Sandra (: 27:48

It will also give you an idea of what their style is and what kind of things they're looking for. I'd like to also ask what their budget is. If you are a photographer, ask what their or, you know, florist or whatever vendor you may be, ask what budget they have for that specific service, if any. If you're a planner, you need to have an idea of what their overall budget is for their wedding.

Kevin Dennis (: 28:11

Yeah.

Sandra (: 28:12

And for photographers, think it's also important to, ⁓ or anybody who's doing a little bit more of the creative work, asking if they have a style in mind that they're looking for. One thing that I had to really get comfortable with as a photographer is learning to tell people when they weren't the right fit and not the other way around. Especially now we see so many polar opposites of a lot of people who do light and airy and a lot of people who do really dark and moody.

Kevin Dennis (: 28:30

Mmm.

Sandra (: 28:40

And so you want to make sure that the person who you are having that conversation with isn't looking for a style that's totally different from yours. Because unfortunately, while we do assume that most people have looked at your website and your portfolio before contacting you, not everybody does. There's always going to be the exceptions to every rule. So having that on there is really important. And then the last question that I think always, always, always has to be on your

contact form is how did you hear from me? This information can go so far in just figuring out where your clients actually are. A big one for me was I kept track of all of my inquiries and I was putting so much time and energy into showing up on Instagram all the time and spending a lot of money going to wedding expos and having a booth and handing my information out to couples that were engaged.

Kevin Dennis (: 29:11

yeah.

Sandra (: 29:35

And then I looked at all of my inquiries and everybody was actually coming from Google because of all of my blogging and SEO. And so when you have that information, if I had not been asking people where they were coming from, I would have spent years longer putting money into going to wedding expos and having a table when I wasn't actually booking any clients from it. So yeah, that, that question is very important.

Kevin Dennis (: 29:40

⁓ wow. Yeah.

bridal fairs, yeah.

No.

Sandra (: 30:00

And then the last one that I like to do just for fun is sort of like a, I'm not a robot question, but I like to just make it more fun and on brand. And if you make it something that has to actually be typed in or selected from a dropdown menu, then it is easier to stop bots from filling it out because bots can go through and check things, like check a checkbox a lot easier. so, mine, everybody, when I was like the peak of...

Kevin Dennis (: 30:22

Yeah.

Sandra (: 30:27

wedding businesses on social media, tacos were like a huge part of my personal brand. And I had people coming up to me at wedding expos saying they wanted to talk to the photographer who was obsessed with tacos and like, it became this whole thing. And so I put the like, I'm not a robot style question on my website as how do feel about tacos? And then people had to select from one of three options. And one of them was that like, I don't like tacos. And so that almost turned into like a differentiator for me on

you know, if it's not a venue that I like to work at and they are looking for a style that's not mine and then they say that they don't like tacos and like, we are not the right fit to work together. Let me refer you to some friends that I think are going to be a great fit. So it's just kind of a way to make sure that I'm not getting those spam inquiries in my inbox and have a little bit of fun with figuring out who's the right fit to work with.

Kevin Dennis (: 31:03

You're out.

Who does not like tacos? i don't, I don't, I really, really? ⁓ my gosh. I love tacos. All right. All right. So we, you talked a lot about like, you know, automation and you know, like what kind of tools or systems do you recommend to streamline this process without like over, I would say like maybe over complicating it, you know, like what way to make it as easy as possible.

Sandra (: 31:59

Right? it actually came up a lot more than I expected. Yeah.

Yeah, I think looking at different CRM systems is the way to make it super, super simple. There's lots of different options out there. I've been using HoneyBook since they came available in Canada, which I think is probably close to 10 years now. Before that, I was using 17 Hats. Dubsado is also a really great option and ⁓ PixiSet as well for photographers listening. They all have their own

Kevin Dennis (: 32:39

Mm.

Sandra (: 32:50

pros and cons, their own really great features. And so it kind of just depends on what your needs are, but also how your brain works. And I think that that's a big one that people kind of don't spend as much time as they should considering. They just hear this really popular recommendation. It's what all their friends are using, or it's really popular in their side of the industry. And so they jump on board and they try to make it work, but it just feels like it's more just adding more to their plate.

I think it's a really good sign that that's not the right CRM system for you and you might want to try out something else. So if you've never used one before, maybe check out the platforms that have trials that you can use or talk to people that are using different platforms to see what is going to be the right fit. ⁓ Because yeah, there's some that even being the like being obsessed with systems and more closed like I am, there are times that I look at a CRM and I'm like,

Kevin Dennis (: 33:21

Mm-hmm.

Sandra (: 33:46

Nope. And I do like a quick turn out of there because it is way too complicated and overwhelming. so yeah, just finding the one that works best for you. But I, like I said, I've been using HoneyBook for 10 years. They have everything that I need in terms of automations that I can connect to my contact form and sending out branded documents and things like that. But I know PixiSet, Dubsado 17hats, they all have similar options and are really great tools to have in your business too.

Kevin Dennis (: 34:11

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, it's kind of interesting when you said, you know, how your brain works and all the different things and I always refer to software, you know, this is the best of the worst. wish you know, I wish I think everyone wishes they could pull a little bit of something from this one and a little bit of something from that one and create their own but that's just unfortunately not how things work. So it would be yeah.

Sandra (: 34:31

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely. You just have to be

understanding that everything's going to come with a learning curve. Nothing is going to just, you know, as soon as you log in, you're going to know how to do it all unless you've used those kinds of systems for a while.

Kevin Dennis (: 34:47

All right, Sandra. So is there a way that someone can identify that their current workflow is breaking down through the process? Is there any flashing lights or any kind of indicator that shows that?

Sandra (: 35:02

Yeah, for anybody that has a fully manual inquiry response system right now, anywhere that you are finding that you are dreading responding to the email is a really good sign that you should set up a template there. And so that way you just have to write it once and you can just send it off a couple minor tweaks and that's it. There are also

If you are feeling like you are tied to your inbox 24 seven, you can't relax, you can't enjoy yourself because you're always checking your inbox. That is another good sign that you need to set up some work flows and automations that something isn't working. You should be able to, you know, enjoy time with your family or go to a session, be at a wedding day without having to be checking your inbox every hour or feeling like you have to step aside so that you can respond to an inquiry.

And then after that, I think the follow-up process, just kind of take a look and see what that looks like for you. If you've done it before, see where you're getting responses from and where you aren't. And really consider if you are carrying on the conversation long enough, like taking into consideration that people are getting busy and have lots going on, especially if they're planning a wedding. Anybody who has planned a wedding can tell you it is.

a whole other full-time job on top of your full-time job that you probably already have and all the things. So yeah, just taking into consideration everybody's walk of life, that not everybody is available to be responding to your email as quickly as you responded to theirs. making those shifts will definitely shift what your inquiry experience looks like in getting people into the booking space.

Kevin Dennis (: 36:48

So for someone that feels completely overwhelmed by systems or tech or afraid to get started with this, can they start small and go big? Or do they have to completely jump into the water, so to speak? is it best to hire someone like you and just let someone else do it? Where do we start, I guess, is the biggest question I'm asking.

Sandra (: 37:15

Yeah, well hiring someone like me to do your work was always an option. ⁓ But for anybody that isn't ⁓ in a space where they're able to outsource that, I definitely recommend starting small. And the first thing that you want to do is actually not even inside your CRM. It's starting with simple pen and paper or an open blank note on your computer. And think about what you want your client experience to look like. And you kind of have to mentally envision

Kevin Dennis (: 37:18

You

Sandra (: 37:43

what it looks like from the time that somebody lands on your website until the time that you send them that proposal or booking form to get them officially on your calendar and walk through what the ideal scenario is from start to finish. And that's really going to give you a sense of where you want to show up for your clients, ways that you can improve the experience that you're already delivering. And then you can kind of

Take look at it overall, figuring out what timing makes sense for you and figuring out if you have any email templates that already exist. So if you have an email that you find yourself sending to every single person that inquires with you, you can copy that over and just make some tweaks and turn that into a template. So you don't necessarily have to write everything from scratch. So yeah, after you have taken the time to write everything out and envision what that workflow is going to look like,

take a look at your inbox and client communications, see what kind of templates you already have living there. And then once you have all of that, that's kind of your foundation for your workflow, then you can move over into your CRM system and start building it out there. And in terms of starting small, I think starting with an autoresponder is the perfect way to really get a feel for how automations can work. ⁓ And it's pretty low.

Kevin Dennis (: 39:05

Mm.

Sandra (: 39:08

stakes because if you have it set up and it's not set up properly and it doesn't send out, they have no idea. They are just getting the same response or same experience that everybody prior to the autoresponder has gotten because you've responded manually. So there's not a lot of risk involved in having that email get sent out automatically that if it doesn't get sent out, nobody will know. And we'll get you familiar with what's kind of

Kevin Dennis (: 39:15

Mm-hmm

That's a good point.

Sandra (: 39:36

settings are available in your system to get that email sent out and things like that. And then from there, if you want to kind of take it one step further, you can set up an automation or a workflow for your follow-up emails. And the difference with the autoresponder and your follow-up emails is what's called an automated workflow versus a semi-automated workflow.

Kevin Dennis (: 40:01

Hmm.

Sandra (: 40:01

So your

automated workflow is the autoresponder. It's going to send out automatically. You don't have to be at your computer. As soon as somebody hit submit on your contact form, that email goes out to them. But with the follow-up emails, when you set up a semi-automated workflow inside your CRM system, what it's going to do is pull up those email templates for you and send you a notification to let you know it's time to send it.

And I think that's really important when you're following up with someone because you don't want to follow up email to go out to somebody automatically if you're in the middle of having a conversation with them. It'll be really awkward and ruin the client experience. So this way you're again, still kind of leaning into that three to five seconds to send this email to somebody, but you're getting notified that it needs to get sent out. You can add in a personalized sentence if you want to and send it off super, super quickly without having to take too much time off your plate.

Kevin Dennis (: 40:33

Mm.

Sandra (: 40:53

So those are the two really small ways that I recommend getting started with workflows, kind of a way to just dip your toe in the water, test out how it feels, and then you can start building out from there and get into your full, huge client experience.

Kevin Dennis (: 41:11

And I guess dive in all the way in on that. So, all right. How far away do you think we are for AI taking over this whole process? And I don't know why that just came to me, but I was just like, you know, the whole time you're going through it, I'm like, how far away are we? think we're, you're going to set up an AI chat bot and they're going to do all the work for us.

Sandra (: 41:13

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I will say I do love AI. I use it a lot in my business. I see huge potential for it being used properly. But I feel like we are huge, huge amounts of time away from it ever fully taking over. There are absolutely ways that it can improve the experience. But one thing that I'm seeing come up a lot

is because we are all adapting AI in so many different ways that especially in the winning industry, there's ⁓ a pull or push for more human centered interactions. So it's been kind of interesting to see how clients are responding as opposed to how business owners are adapting. ⁓ And so because of that, being able to automate and use AI for certain aspects to make your job more efficient,

Kevin Dennis (: 42:09

Mm.

Sandra (: 42:27

and maybe give you pieces of your life back so that you're not living, sleeping, breathing your work and nothing else. Definitely huge windows of opportunity in the wedding industry and photography industry for that. But as far as having it fully take over the whole experience, I think that in the wedding industry, that's something that we're really going to want to stay away from. ⁓

Kevin Dennis (: 42:34

Mm-hmm

Yeah.

Sandra (: 42:56

even using AI to edit weddings where I was doing my calling for me, but then I went through and I made sure that it, you know, it didn't, it can't differentiate one smile from another. It's picking what it like has been taught is a good smile, but I still want to go through because I'm seeing a sparkle in someone's eye and things like that. But what it's doing is it's taking my 4,000 photos down to 800 photos for me to go through.

Kevin Dennis (: 43:10

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Sandra (: 43:23

And when

I'm running my photos through the AI editing software, it's just doing my base edits for me. I still have to go through and I have to make sure that all of it looks exactly how I want it to put my finishing touches on it. And that is what differentiates my work from other people's work. And so because of things like that, and then of course, anybody who's used AI to try and remove something from a photo and that ends up putting something totally different there, like

Kevin Dennis (: 43:51

You

Sandra (: 43:51

I tried to take my

assistant out of a back, like a white curtain that was hanging in the background and it replaced it with somebody's leg peeking out from the curtain. So like when things like that are happening, we do not have to worry anytime soon about AI completely taking over. I think if we embrace it for the tool it is and find ways to help us do our job better, then that is where the time and energy is worth.

Kevin Dennis (: 44:01

Hehehehe

quicker, yeah.

Yeah, good point. I was just very curious because I'm like, you never know. So yeah.

Sandra (: 44:23

Right? I know. But like,

especially with, you know, ⁓ upgrades and new releases from things like Claude and Google, where they're implementing their own workflow and automation capabilities, I definitely had a little bit of concern in the beginning, but then I started playing around with it. And I see so many hurdles for something like the wedding industry.

Kevin Dennis (: 44:47

Mm-hmm.

Sandra (: 44:47

something

that, you know, it's a product shop or completely corporate where there's not a lot of human interaction or not a lot of like emotion involved like there is in the wedding industry. They're going to have a lot more usage and capabilities of how they can use it because they don't have people involved in their business anyway. But I think that for us, that human interaction is actually going to become more important with the increase of AI and not less.

Kevin Dennis (: 44:55

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I'm sure the Amazons of the world are out there running the whole business. Less people we can hire, let's go, you know, kind of thing. anyway, all right, Sandra, wrap up. Just kind of last kind of quick question. If you can give like wedding pros one quick win or, know, some kind of advice that, you know, anything that they could implement today to book more clients, what would that be?

Sandra (: 45:19

Right?

Yeah.

I would recommend to actually send an email to anybody who says that they don't want to book with you. They've decided to go with somebody else for whatever reason that may be. A lot of times if we respond to that, we're sending out an email that just says, thank you so much for letting me know. All the best. And we leave it at that. But what I think is really important is to add in an extra sentence in there and to ask them why they decided to book elsewhere.

Kevin Dennis (: 45:59

Yeah.

Sandra (: 46:06

And you can be, you don't have to ask them who they booked with or anything like that. I like to phrase it as, ⁓ if you're willing to share, I would love to know more about what the deciding factor was, whether that be it was the, like a personality fit, pricing, the style, something else that factored in. And the reason why is because this kind of information really helps me serve couples just like you in the future who are inquiring with me. And I want to make sure that I'm delivering the best for everybody.

And I would say three out of 10 respond to it. But the information that I got from those emails was so valuable in then considering how I was showing up for other people that could be inquiring. So you will hear things like, know, they found somebody who was a better fit pricing wise or offered more in their package. You might hear that ⁓ there was a couple of people who said that.

Kevin Dennis (: 46:51

Hmm.

Sandra (: 47:02

They decided to go with a photographer who had already worked at their venue before, or they decided to have a family member do it. The information that you're getting is really, really valuable so that you're not just sitting there thinking like, you weren't good enough, they didn't like your photos, like all those negative thoughts that really start kind of popping in. Those don't happen anymore because you're actually getting a reason as to why. And you can use that to then tweak your client experience if you need to. that, even though it's not part of the actual like,

Kevin Dennis (: 47:11

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sandra (: 47:31

inquiry process of like they inquired and now I want them to book. It does in like a bigger picture way help with that process because you are getting really good information about your business from the people who are actually looking to hire you.

Kevin Dennis (: 47:46

Yeah, that is really good piece of advice. And some of the best advice I got is that you got to remember, like, not every client is for you. You know what saying? And it just, the sooner you can kind of get through there and not take it personal, the easier of getting through that, navigating through that process. you know, it just...

Sandra (: 47:55

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Dennis (: 48:06

because you do like you were saying earlier in the podcast is that, you know, you're at a wedding and you're like, why am I even here? I don't mesh with the client. This is not a venue I like to work at. You know, like it's just like, why did they pick me? You know, like you start wondering and it's not a fun place to be. Yeah, no, no, it really is not a fun place to be. So, all right. All right. Well, Sandra, I can't thank you enough. There's lots and lots of great advice and you know, lots and lots of things for the listeners to be thinking about their processes and what

Sandra (: 48:19

Mm-hmm. I've unfortunately been there. No, it's really not.

Kevin Dennis (: 48:36

things they need to be doing and changing and things to do to make it better. So, Sandra, where can folks find you?

Sandra (: 48:42

Yeah, you can find me on my website, simplysandrayvonne.ca not.com. i am over here in Canada. And then you can also, I am on Instagram at @SimplySandraYvonne as in I have an account and I'm in my stories, but my main social media platform is threads at @SimplySandraYvonne over there too. That's where I just love to talk about all things. I mean, some business things, but all non-business things too. Like that's where if you want to come out or come over, hang out.

socialize, talk about Bravo and all the things, that's a great place for it. And then have some photography conversations in there too.

Kevin Dennis (: 49:15

Hehehehe

Well, and there's a lot of us in the US that wish we were up in Canada with you right now ⁓ for lots of other reasons. But ⁓ we will have all of Sandra's information ⁓ in the show notes, as well as the email blast that goes out. So don't forget, if you're not signed up for the email blast, be sure to do so. That's where you get all the great information. And as well as don't forget to hit that Subscribe and Like button on all the different platforms out there. So Sandra, I can't thank you enough.

Sandra (: 49:26

Yeah, for sure.

Thanks so much, Kevin.

Kevin Dennis (: 49:49

All right, folks, we'll see you next time on another episode of Mind Your Wedding Business.