From Pancakes to Penthouses: Unconventional Marketing Methods for Event Professionals | Phillip Van Nostrand

Kevin Dennis [: 00:00:01

Welcome to mind your wedding business podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Dennis. In addition to leading the charge at Weddingiq, I also run fantasy sound event Services, a lighting and entertainment company based in Livermore, California, that I founded over 35 years ago. Each week on this podcast, you'll hear thought provoking and empowering interviews with wedding professionals who have found success in the industry. If you're a business minded wedding pro who loves love but also cares about their bottom line, buckle up and get ready to learn from a new industry expert each week. All right, folks, let's welcome Philip to the show. We're going to be talking today about out of box marketing ideas. So I've been really excited for this one because I love being different, and that's what I think.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:00:46

I think that's what today's episode is going to be about. Right, Philip?

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:00:49

Yeah, exactly. Freaking out of the box.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:00:51

Yeah. All right, so what makes a out of the box marketing idea?

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:00:57

Oh, boy. I think. I think most people are really used to doing the same thing over and over again. And that would be like posting on Instagram nowadays, maybe TikTok, and that's it. I don't know if people actually think of any other way to do things besides go to a networking event and post it online. And so I think there's really. I've seen in the events industry some really interesting things that people have done that have sort of sparked my curiosity. And I would say anything out of the box is basically beyond just going to a networking event, having lunch with a vendor, and posting on Instagram.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:01:35

Anything outside of that box is out.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:01:37

Of the box, which are all good things to do. But you need. I think we need to do more, right. To be different in the scene.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:01:45

I mean, I don't know if we need to, but it's good. It's noticeable. I mean, anytime that anyone is doing something that is different, it sets you apart. It allows you to be remembered. There's. I don't know, there's just. You get a little bit of an edge against everyone else who's doing the bare minimum. And if you're competitive, then that's a good way to win.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:02:04

Perfect. So what are some out of the box marketing ideas?

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:02:07

Oh, gosh. We were just starting right away.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:02:09

Yeah.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:02:10

Yes. Okay. You know, I have to say some of these with a caveat. Some of these are easy to do. If you have. If your company is bringing in, like, five to $10 million a year, some of these are easier to do. If you have $0 in your boots.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:02:25

Jacket, that's a good idea. So we have a range of things. Yeah.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:02:28

And so at the top end, I think one of the most exciting, interesting marketing ideas I've ever seen is Jordan Khan from Jordan Khan Orchestra. He's a musician, has a lot of bands. His. He was trying to get into the New York market a lot and ended up getting an apartment, like a really nice apartment in Manhattan and for himself to use when he was in town and his team or whatever. But anytime it's not being used, he's basically giving it away for free to different planners who are passing through town. So Jordan Khan has now what is now a penthouse on the 48th floor of this building. You have views of the Empire State Building. Outside the bathroom, you've got three bedrooms.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:03:13

It's like a really, really nice suite. And anytime that he has a friend or a vendor that he knows who's coming through New York, he'll say, hey, do you have a hotel? And if they say no, then he's like, stay at my place. Talk to my girl Abby. She'll book you up. It's like a free hotel. They get to live sort of like a New York baller. And every single person that stays at Jordan Khan's penthouse is tagging it and also only thinking of him the next time they are ready to book a band. It's like the ultimate favor giver, you know, that's.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:03:45

Well, I've yet to stay at the penthouse, but that is an amazing, amazing.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:03:50

But you've heard of that, right?

Kevin Dennis [: 00:03:51

I've heard of the penthouse. I was very fortunate to have Jordan perform at my wife's 40th birthday last year.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:03:57

Yeah.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:03:58

And so. And I've always. She is a huge Jordan Cahn fan. And anyway, but he. I think I. We all can learn how. I mean, he's marketed himself in so many out of the box different ways. I mean, he probably could.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:04:13

I have a few examples from him, but that's the number one. One that's most interesting. Well, yeah, investment. Huge investment. Yeah. The department cost. I'm not gonna say exact number, but it's got to be. I'll say it's around ten to $15,000 a month.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:04:26

Yeah.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:04:26

Probably on the higher end of that. But if he books one band a month from the 30 different, like, you know, 20 different guests that come through, he's golden. Yeah. He's made his money back and then some paid for himself, and it's a write off. You know, all of that stuff is like. It's just gold.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:04:42

It's all these you know, people that stay there are, you know, they're marketing for him and, you know, it's just. It's.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:04:48

It can goes on and on. And to be really clear, like, he's not expecting anything. Like, he does this very much with, like, an open hand. So that's a good one. I know my friend Vidi Ditani. She is a graphic designer, invitations stationery specialist here in New York. She just designed our Wipa invite for our next Wipa event. And she was going to, after one of the engage conferences that we went to, she was going to pick her top five or ten planners that she really loved meeting and send them a hand painted thank you note.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:05:27

And that's, like, the simplest thing you can do that costs no money, just time, where she's like, I think handwritten notes in general are a rare art form. And some people do it, but not many. But to be an artist and to be able to show somebody exactly what you do in the form of a thank you note is pretty exceptional. And to have that land in someone's inbox and be like, oh, my God, this is really pretty. I'm not even going to throw this away, and I want this at my next wedding.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:05:53

You said it's a lost art. It's such as, I get so excited when I get one in the bail. It's always like, oh, because you're used to just getting bills and, you know, whatever, junk mail or, you know, all that. All that stuff when. When someone actually takes the time to write you a note. In today's world, yeah, it really does go a long way. So.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:06:10

So that's from, like, the. We went from, like, the $14,000 marketing a month to free. I know something in the middle. Here's another free one. This is interesting. Chris Jesperson from Storybox Cinema. He famously has worked with Lynn Easton. I don't know Josh from Milan on every single one of his fam trips.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:06:33

Like David Beam, all these people, everybody, everybody in the industry. And he, after he went and filmed one of the engages, engage Sardinia about five years ago, he reached out to every single notable planner that he could think of, and he told them, I'm happy to do one free wedding for you next year. And this is worth. This is at value of like $20,000 or whatever, the high price that he decided. So he told them, I want to give you a $20,000 gift and let you see how we work. And he just jumped from zero to the top. Every single one of those weddings. He told me this personally.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:07:10

He said every single one of those weddings that he gifted for free, they all tipped him what his old price would have been or to cover costs at least. So he was never out of pocket for them, even though he was planning on being out of pocket. And, and he went from zero to like, no middle steps or trying to, like, earn his way in. He just was like, working with the Neeson from one day to the next and, and continues to be. And now he's able to charge that top dollar rate. But that was his way to get in the door. It's fascinating.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:07:37

Well, no, and that's taking a risk. So sometimes with marketing, I think you, yeah, you got to take some risks, and that's amazing.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:07:44

Some of those he probably filmed and never worked with again, and that was fine. But, but I think it was like a real skyrocket, way to the top of his industry really fast. Another thing that Chris did that cost him a little bit of money that I love, he told me he used to ask planners, maybe, I don't know, Shannon Leahy from San Francisco or something, like, hey, when are you in San Francisco? Next in free. I'd love to see if we can overlap. And she's like, oh, I got two weeks from now, I'm kind of around. And he's like, oh, my God, I'm going to be in town. And he'd go and book a plane ticket and be in town and have a two hour lunch with her and then go home and that's it. It was his, like $300 lunch or $400 lunch to get there, have lunch, hang out, and then go back home.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:08:32

And he did this over and over again. And he was like conveniently at everybody's location whenever they were free. I love it.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:08:38

I wonder if he ever let him in on the secret when they were question. Yeah.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:08:44

Oh, maybe people, I would think after.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:08:47

After you're having lunch and you're sitting across from someone and you're, you know, getting that relationship going, and when they find out that you, whether he really did, I think that would go a long way.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:08:56

So, yeah, it's like the extra, going the extra mile. And to me, that's like above and beyond, just like hoping that you can get lunch with someone in your neighborhood or whatever. You know what I mean? Like he's really just doing it and it shows up in dividends later on.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:09:09

Yeah, that goes a long way. All right, so I'll tell you one thing that we've done, which is a simple thing that people really like, is we find a. You know, every day is a national whatever day. And before COVID we need to do something after. But before COVID we celebrated national pizza Day and brought everyone pizza lunch, you know, and just everyone. And we said, we so cheesy to be with you. And it, like, locally got all over everyone's instagram. And that whole day, we were all over everyone's instagram.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:09:39

And we probably delivered about 25 different planners. We work with venues. We work with pizza lunch. So there was an outside of the box because I got the idea because I was sitting at one of the venues we work at, and it was holiday time, and I'm like, where did you guys get all this chocolate from? And one of the girls goes, I don't know. This stuff just keeps coming. I don't even know who it's from. And I was like, you know, I'm like, well, why would you gift something, you know, something on a normal holiday, like, so think outside of the box. And that's what made me.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:10:15

That's what made me think about it. So instead of being one of many, we were one of one. You know, kind of.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:10:19

It's so. It's so smart. Yeah. Anytime it's, like, memorable. Not on a day that everyone else is doing again, you're just going above the bare minimum. I think that's really smart.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:10:27

Yeah.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:10:28

And not. Not so expensive either.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:10:29

No, and it wasn't. I mean, I mean, that. That was very inexpensive for the amount of, you know, social media buzz and everything we created, especially. I mean, pizza is nothing that expensive to begin with. So there's national hall every day. I mean, you can find something to sell. I mean, we. This year, we were going to do it, but we ended up getting too busy.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:10:48

We were going to celebrate national tequila day and do a margarita. Do a margarita party at our office because, you know, like, people haven't been back in our office and, you know, just getting people back going again. So just. So what are some of your favorites? You know, we talked about some, but.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:11:03

Yeah. And I guess the through line that I want to say, you. You know, you kind of mentioned something right at the end there. You said getting people into the office. And I think the common factor that every single one of my examples gave was that there's. It's relationship building, really. So I think good marketing is not one directional. You know, like.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:11:24

Like sending a chocolate to someone and hoping that they, like, hire you is. It's not it, and it's not the right ask. And it's sort of like, just being nice, hoping that they'll kiss you, you know, it doesn't, it's like, it's not.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:11:36

Related to dating, too. It really is like dating. It really is.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:11:40

It is. And so, and so, you know, but if you can get them into the office for, like, a little fun or party or pizza or have them. Have them be at your penthouse, and then you, if you're in town and you cook them dinner that night, that's gold, you know? Yeah. Anytime you can spend more than one to, you know, one to two solid hours getting deep with somebody in this industry, I think at the top, like, people really just want to work with the people that they like. So. So we're thinking of ways to become good friends with those people.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:12:11

It is so true. People, you know, like, because something bad can happen at an event and they're gonna, they're gonna help you and defend you because, you know, you have a relationship and they're, they're gonna know that it just, it was a one off. It wasn't something that normally happens every time you're there.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:12:25

So and so for me, like, I think some people might think of marketing as advertising where you got to. I'm marketing myself. I buy an ad in the knot or wedding wire or something or, like, promote a post on Instagram. But I don't think that's quite it. I think for me, marketing is really tied to relational marketing, and that's the most successful because a lot of us are relying not just on couples, but, you know, it's a relationships in our lives, even couples. If so, they're going to refer us. It's because they like us. And so I'm just thinking of ways that are, like, not just getting people to think of me, but getting, you know, loving people and having them love me in a different way, you know?

Kevin Dennis [: 00:13:06

Well, yeah, because that's gold. Yeah. They're going to immediately hire you, and there's no, nobody else that they're going to talk about. So.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:13:13

And I don't know if you could call this marketing or what, but, like, I, I have a friend, Jennifer Pletcher. She's out in Vail. She's one of the top wedding planners in Vail. I met her at a conference, and she was like, oh, you got to come out and snowboard with me sometime. And I was like, all right, maybe I will. And so for the last three years, every single year in January, I've made a trip out to Denver and rented a car and gone up and snowboarded with this woman. And we've become really, really, like, some of the best friends. And I have three weddings with her this year.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:13:44

What?

Kevin Dennis [: 00:13:45

That is marketing.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:13:47

Yeah. And so, you know, I'm marketing myself, more or less. And so instead of, like, showing her my photos, I'm, like, sitting on a, you know, a ski slope with her and then playing with her kid and going to dinner and stuff and just having quality time together, even if it's 48 hours together, which sometimes it is. And it's not just like a wasted trip or whatever. My best friend lives in Denver, so I'm visiting him. I'm usually coming from my hometown of California and going back to New York, so I'll stop through Denver on the way home. It's that kind of thing, you know, like, where it's, like, maybe like a $500 expense or $400. But, you know, the total weddings that I have with her this year are going to be 16, 10, 26.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:14:27

It's going to be around $36,000 worth of business. And so I would spend up to $30,000 to make that happen, but it's not, you know what I mean? It's not. I'm spending $1,000 or whatever to hang out with her for a day, and I get a $35,000 return. It's a very good investment, and that's. That's gold, you know, I don't even know how else to describe that. And that's been built up over the few years, but, like, that's it. That's my favorite. My favorite is snowboarding with Jenny.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:14:53

Well, no, and it's funny because people don't think about it. A lot of this is, it's the relationship and continue to develop, and you want people we want to hang out with, people we like, you know?

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:15:04

Yeah, exactly.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:15:05

So you've mentioned all these different, you know, we know each other through the WIPA world, you know? And so you've mentioned, you know, a couple times, conferences and all these different things. Do you feel like conferences and, you know, belonging to a group like WIPA or, you know, ilea or nace or any of these? Is that where you start the relationships, you know, or what do you think?

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:15:29

Yeah, I think if you. If you just sign up to become a member of one of these organizations and only go to the events and then go home, I think you're missing it a little bit. I think the further step is not to send them a box of chocolates, but to, to, like, with any one person that you connect with. Take them to lunch the next day and then continue that. That, like, relational marketing experience where you show up and then. And then you do it again next month. And then you say, when's your birthday? You got a kid or something? Like, let me. Let me shoot.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:15:59

Let me photograph your kid's birthday for free. Or let me. Let me do something for you, like, for your team. Let me do headshots for your team. Or if you're a dj, maybe. Let me. Let me create a playlist for your team, like, on your next vacation or whatever. So.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:16:11

So you're giving. You're giving, giving, giving, giving, giving. You know, Jordan Khan is giving his apartment. You know, Chris Jesperson gave the free videos. I'm giving a lot, a lot of photography away for free.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:16:24

It goes a long way. Yeah, yeah, it goes. And one, you get to, you know, because a lot of us, we get to see you do your work, but we don't get to experience the, you know, like, if you came and, you know, shot, you know, like, me and my family, it's a whole different level of the relationship, like you.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:16:43

And if I did. If I did do that and did it for free, you'd love it. But we would also go to dinner afterwards.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:16:48

100%.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:16:49

Well, of course.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:16:50

Yeah.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:16:50

Then we'd really get to know each other and we'd share, and it's beautiful, you know? So that's, like, I don't even know if I could call that marketing, but it's that, like, selling yourself a little bit, you know, and which is.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:17:01

It's your marketing. I mean, it's anything we do out to put ourselves out there, I think of as marketing. So.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:17:07

And ultimately, I'm hoping to show my work, not just my photos, but actually how I work. So the goal is to, like, do a favor. You know, the first time I worked with Jenny, that lady out in Vail, like, I significantly discounted the first wedding because she had a client that she thought would be good for me. Their budget wasn't what I normally would charge, so I think I just got, you know, $4,000 or $5,000 or something to do it, but it got me in the door so that I could say that I've worked with her, so she could tell clients I've worked with her, that I've been to vail, blah, blah, blah. There's, like, I do want to say, and this is sort of tangential, but, like, there's. There's lots of different kinds of value when we're getting our gigs, and money is just one third of them. But. But portfolio building is extremely valuable, and relationship building is.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:17:53

Is also almost as valuable. And so if I could build a relationship, but not making that, that much money, that's a huge win. Still.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:18:00

I agree. And I was thinking about. You were saying portfolio. I was thinking about that for the. For the gentleman that gave away all the, you know, the. The wedding videos.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:18:07

Yeah.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:18:08

Because I was like, he's developing his portfolio all over the place, building his resume.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:18:12

I mean, those are kick ass gigs for sure. And so, yeah, not only did he build the relationship, but he also built the portfolio at the same time. So he just missed the money part. But he was two out of three for that.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:18:23

Yeah, but you got to start somewhere.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:18:25

So then the money came later and he didn't need the portfolio as much, but he's making the job, so it's all. Yeah, that's really. It's really smart.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:18:32

No, I agree. So one thing you just said earlier, and I was. I was going to ask you, but we might as well stop and ask where. I didn't know you were from California. Where. What part of California from?

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:18:40

I'm Santa Barbara, born and raised.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:18:42

Oh, wow. I love Santa Barbara. It's such a beautiful place. So.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:18:46

Yeah.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:18:46

And then now you're in New York. So, anyway.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:18:49

Yep. This is actually my ten year anniversary of living in New York, so.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:18:53

Is it really?

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:18:54

Yeah. I was in Santa Barbara for 30 plus years of my life, and I've moved to New York ten years ago. And September will be my ten year anniversary.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:19:01

Wow, that's amazing. It's still my favorite city of all the whip. I will. I loved all the WIPA chapters I've visited, but you guys were by far my favorite.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:19:12

We love you, too, man. Welcome back.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:19:14

I'm sure it didn't. It didn't hurt that the very first time I met you guys was at Carnegie hall. We were all, oh, yeah, yeah, that was. I mean, it was like.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:19:22

That's funny.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:19:22

That was amazing experience to me and Julie Andrews old apartment.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:19:26

Yeah.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:19:27

Anyway, all right, so we have someone implementing a new marketing strategy. What are some tips you can give us?

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:19:33

A. Good, good. Again. So I would say if the bare minimum is going to be tick tock and Instagram, whatever, that's, like, almost expected. But it's not. It's not exceptional. It's just the baseline. If you're marketing, I would think of.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:19:52

I mean, really, it's like, who do you want to work with and what problems can you solve for them? That's sort of the questions we want to ask. Ourselves. So, like, I, I want to work with whoever, David Beam or something. And what's a problem that he's facing? Like, it might not even be a photo problem. It could just be he's looking for, you know, like doggy daycare. And I love dogs, you know, or whatever. Like, or, you know, or his boyfriend is in the city and needs new friends and I have them, you know, and so whatever it is, like, if I can, if I can help solve someone else's problem, all I'm thinking about is how to give, give, give, and to make other people's lives better and it will eventually come back me. And even if, even if it doesn't, like, I've done good in the world and I can walk around with my head tall, you know, like, no, it's a win either way.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:20:40

I'm putting good sort of karma out into the world. But you're also doing like, favors for people. So I mean, give me maybe an example of what kind of vendor you're thinking of, and we can think of a good marketing, just think of a.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:20:53

Planner, like an event planner or whatever.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:20:56

So if event planner is starting out newer and they want to do a marketing thing. Okay, good. So if I was an event planner in San Francisco, maybe I would start checking out all these, like any boutique hotels that have like maybe new or up and coming events programs and ask to like, view the hotel, do a little tour or whatever, meet the events person, and then say, hey, what are you trying to do this year that you think would be fun, that would really, like, put this hotel on the map? Whatever that person says, say, I want to help you plan that, and I'd love to donate my time and services and create something together and we could do something really good. And the hotel can hotel bring your favorite vendors that you want to invite or whatever, or all trying to invite somebody. And then the two of you create something really special, like a holiday party for planners in town. Or maybe you want to host the WIPA chapter, whatever it is, but plant that seed and help the hotel execute it and make it amazing. And maybe even spend a little bit to make it amazing. But I think that's a great way to develop a relationship with.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:21:59

And people think planners are at the top of the food chain, but hotels or like venues can also pass gigs along. So once you're in like that. Yeah. So there you go. For me, that's the out of the box thing is to, is to connect with someone there, help them make them look good, and then get on their list forever at the very beginning.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:22:17

Yeah. And I think people forget is, like, once you're on one of these venues list, you know, it's like gold, but it's also. It's not given. You know, like, you're only as good as your last event, you know, last wedding. You got to continue to give and develop, and just because I've seen it go wrong where I've seen a rental company get on one of the venues that we work at a list, and then all of a sudden they just stop. Their on time delivery was the window got a little bigger, and it. Just because they achieved it doesn't mean that you get to keep it, I guess.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:22:52

Yeah, no, it can't just be all shine. Sorry. I guess that's sort of a basic assumption here is that, like, once you get your foot in the door, you deliver the goods, and that's what we're expecting. There's no slack enough. Nothing. I drives me more crazy than hearing about people in this industry who come in strong and hot and, like, schmooze their way into, like, a lot of people's lives and events, but, like. And then I hear later that they, they were miserable to work with. They didn't deliver, they were too slow, whatever it was.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:23:21

Yeah, that drives me crazy because they got that, like, the shine part down, but the, like, after part is lacking.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:23:29

Well, it's the most important part, you know? Yeah. I mean, we gotta, you know, it's hard to start, and it's hard to put yourself out there, and it's hard to, you know, like you said, to shine and do all that stuff, but, you know, we should at least be good at our art, you know, like, whatever your art is, you know? Yeah. And you gotta be good at that part. That's that. Like you said, it's a given, but it's not.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:23:50

That's the part that I. Yeah, but you're right. So if you're new in any, any industry, even new in a town, you want to figure out, like, who the big players are, see how you can help them make their lives better. That's it. You know, like, for that. So the venue example is a great one, and not everybody has room for, like, new people in their lives.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:24:05

No, no.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:24:07

I've tried hard with, like, a few planners, and after, like, eight tries, I was like, all right, I guess they don't really care. They don't need me, and that's fine, but.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:24:14

But it wasn't, you know, I always say when one door closes, another one opens, you know? My aunt was big with that with me, and I would, I would see that because as long as you may, you know, small touches here, small touches there, you know, something may change in their lives because, you know, I've been a big believer. It takes sometimes two to three years to get, you know, to really develop that relationship, really get strong, that you may not get anything back from it, but you have to continue to give, give, give. And that's where I think you're so right.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:24:48

Yeah, I do think the long game is something that not enough people appreciate and, like, really, like, you're right. Two to three years, totally, to book at least a gig. That's the same thing with Jennifer and Vail. Like, it was at least two years before I booked. But I think the other thing to think about, too, is a lot of people kind of want to aim toward the top. Like the people who are, I don't know, on the best of lists or speaking on stage at places. But I think it's important to recognize that there's a lot of people who are kind of going to be on the top in the next five to ten years and to recognize who's doing really quality work in your, in your area, but aren't necessarily, like, too hard to reach, you know? And so those are the people you want to align yourselves with now. You can both grow up together and you're both be killing it in the next five to ten years.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:25:36

That, that's a very long perspective as well.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:25:38

Yeah, I know.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:25:39

It is.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:25:40

It's, it's, it's a major long game. And I think that's what people really forget because, well, even, like, if we think about the WIpa side of it, you know, like people, I joined a membership, I should get, I should get information back or, you know, I should get a gig. No, it doesn't work that way. Or I went to a meeting and I passed out all my business cards. Well, did you talk to these people? Did you develop relationship? No. You know, like, and that's, that's a.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:26:02

Thing that was, that was one of the other things I forgot to mention. But when I was saying about WiPA, like, you can join and go to event, but if you don't follow up with people, like, properly and not, not just follow up via email, but take them out to lunch is one thing, but the other thing I think is to get into leadership. And so not, not like, it took me two years. Like, after the second year, I was like, oh, I should be on the board of WIPa because I don't know. There's just more access there. There's, like, more people you're connected to, like, the people who are in charge. And so now I happen to be president of New York because I just hung out long enough. It's been five years of doing that.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:26:34

But then think about it. You guys as a group are shaping the education that's coming in, shaping where we're going to have events. You, you guys are all working together as a team, which is, I think then that helps you with all the other leaders that are on there, because they're saying, wow, Phil's a great guy. He's going to follow. He gets us there. He got us in at this play, you know, and then that just continues to help grow your marketing.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:27:01

Yeah, it goes along with, so for me, like, it even happened, I was thinking about, like, what the benefits of being president has been, because it's not, I don't know. It's a lot of work, obviously, but it's not all fun. No, but. But I think we got to bring a partner planner on for an upcoming event that's happening June 20 in New York. And because we've been working back and forth with this lady, she just sent me a wedding for next year, potentially. She passed one my way. I don't know if I'm going to book it, but I was like, oh, she never would have really thought of me if I hadn't been in this position to let her show off herself, you know, for our event. And now, like, I'm on top of mind, which is also, like, kind of what you want with marketing is to stay top of mind.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:27:46

And now, now I'm getting inquiries through her, which is cool, and from other board members on the board, which is exactly what I hoped would happen. It's. It's like just staying top of mind. Seeing these people, like, throughout the year and just kind of being the photographer that's, like, around them has been beneficial.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:28:02

But it also, I will be. I've been to a grizzly veteran, and I'm old enough now where I've actually seen it go wrong, too. So just because, just because you are on the board and you also need to, like, return emails, you need to follow up. If you again view it. Yeah.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:28:19

You don't just get your foot in the door.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:28:20

You got to deliver. Yeah, 100%. So, yeah, I've seen it to where people are. Like, I always thought, you know, Susie the planner always had her stuff together, but I, wow, she is a shit show.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:28:33

And, you know, you're absolutely right.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:28:35

Yeah. I'm kind of glad I don't work with her because I'm getting experience her from a different point of view. So it's. It's also beneficial, like, when you say to get in this leadership, but you also, you know, don't sign up to be the membership director if you're not really good about out being in front of people and selling, you know, don't do. Don't be the social media. You know, don't do communications if you don't know how to. You're not very good at Instagram and take, you know, all that stuff. So, you know, figure out what you're good at.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:29:01

Be there and shine, because it's gonna, you know, like you said, it took you five years, and look, you're on top of the. The Whipple world in New York, which is the pinnacle of the. Of the. Of the Whipple world, so.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:29:13

And that's allowed me to network with other presidents and other chapters, which is really what I wanted, you know, like, yeah, I don't. I don't love to be president, but I love to know the people that. That, like, opens doors for so well.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:29:24

And I know it's also led to speaking jobs for you, you know?

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:29:28

Yeah.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:29:28

Yeah.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:29:28

Like a whole. Yeah. And that's also marketing, I guess. Yeah, you're right.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:29:31

And getting. Getting out there, so it continues, you know, you never know. You never know where that next opportunity is going to come from, so.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:29:38

You're right.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:29:39

All right, so we've kind of talked about all these crazy, you know, out of the box ideas. Anything you may want to leave us with or.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:29:47

Yeah, there's a few others I was thinking of. Here's a fun Jordan Khan one. Okay.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:29:53

He.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:29:54

He got, like. He loves to cook and stuff, and.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:29:56

He'S a good cook.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:29:57

I know you got this portable barbecue thing that you could take on an airplane. It's like a portable grill that's like the size of a backpack or whatever, and you can fit it on an overhead for an airplane. Whatever. So Jordan Khan started. It was a couple years ago. He would reach out to planter friends that were having big, epic weddings that he wasn't even a part of and said, hey, I want to cook for you guys for your vendor meal, so you don't have to just have whatever the food is. And so he'd show up and cook them this, like, gourmet. Like, he'd get steak and the whole thing, and he'd be on the side, like, just cooking for these guys outside and then they'd have this, like, kick ass meal that he just gifted that.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:30:35

It's beautiful, you know?

Kevin Dennis [: 00:30:37

Wow, that's a way out of the box.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:30:39

Oh, way out of the box. I love that one. Here's another interesting one. Brian Buenosisi. DJ Brian B. He, I remember early days when him and I were both going to engage summits, which is luxury weddings conference, and he, we kept thinking like, man, how can you get in there? But like, josh from Milan kind of has a monopoly on, like, entertainment and he doesn't really allow other outsiders to come in. And we kept thinking of things. And finally I remember after a couple of years of this, Brian being like, oh, you know what? Like, they don't have an emcee to introduce people on stage.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:31:11

It's just, it's just the two ladies, like, going up and be like, okay, next up, Colin Cowie. Or here's like, brian, whatever. And so, so he pitched them. He said, hey, I'd love to just be the guy who's like the voice that introduces people on stage. I'll ask them what kind of music they want to be led into. It'll be like, great. And he totally added value. He solved a problem for them that they didn't even realize they had, really.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:31:34

And he made it super clean and professional and he got into engage that way for free. And then for like, many, many multiple engages, probably, I'm guessing six to ten by now. He's been able to do this with, and so he doesn't have to pay, he just gets free entry and he's seeing thing and he does a thing. And it ultimately led to him djing parties at engage or after party, you know, all kinds of stuff.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:31:57

And it showcases himself. And showcases himself, yeah.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:32:00

And when he's like, introducing people on stage, every single person on stage interacts with him because he's emailing them, being like, hey, you're gonna go up. What kind of music can I get you on stage for? And like, you know what I mean? And he gets to interact with them a little bit. So there's this. He just like, he did a really smart thing by offering something for free, by giving and by solving a problem, and then he inserted himself right at the top, which is beautiful.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:32:23

That is actually very, that's an amazing story.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:32:26

Yeah. So thinking of ways like that you can solve someone else's problem, puts you into their lives in a really beautiful way, I think.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:32:33

Well, and the other thing too, you know, it's funny, we were talking about, like, and this not even solving a problem. We're going to take a little turn here, but Megan, you know, Megan ealy, and I joke that she's my older sister. Megan used to have a pancake party at her house, and she would do this and just a way to give back to the Richmond folks, you know, in the event industry. She came all over one morning, she. She'd have multiple griddles. She said she would, you know, the circuit breakers would be going off because she'd have too many griddles going. But everyone was making pancakes. They'd make all kinds of pancakes, but it's something different, you know, out of the box, and it brings everyone together and what is, you know, what did that cost? That was very minimal cost.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:33:14

Totally relational. I think it's amazing. Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:33:17

And the more, like you said, the more relational you can make these things, the better. And then she got known as the pancake lady for a while.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:33:25

That's great. Yeah, yeah. I think I said this in a talk last year, but it takes like a lot of touch points to really become friends with somebody. So you have to think about that, too. When you're thinking of like the long game, it's not one lunch and people are hiring you for their wedding. You know, it's like seven to eight touch points before someone really considers you their friend. Yeah. Like a light friend, you know, 1515 interactions before you.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:33:47

Really. So 15 is a lot. That's like maybe one a month for a year before you're really, you know, actually kind of friends with somebody or you do like, my God, it's. Snowboarding over two days is a lot of hours. Right. So. But that's. That kind of thing is to remember is that it's not just a one.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:34:02

One and done. It's deep, it's authentic. We are being real. We are delivering really solid, you know, services to our. To our clients and to the vendors that we're working with.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:34:13

So then in the end, you know, and then I think the biggest thing out of everything we're talking about, it's. You got to remember the long game. It's a long game.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:34:20

Yes. Yeah.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:34:22

None of this happens overnight, you know, because I. Yeah, yeah.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:34:25

Cuz you've been around long enough, and I have two now finally, to see, like, I've seen some people come and go in New York and it's very interesting. I get a little nervous, too, because I see people coming in hot and I taking jobs with people that I wish I was working with. And then like two years later, they're gone. So it's very. It's very interesting to think about that.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:34:41

I've actually seen that in our market where they come in and they're like. You're like, where did this person come from? How are they so famous? And then all of a sudden, it's like, where did they go? You know, they're just gone.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:34:52

So, yeah, it's not, I think the good work is not so glamorous. It's just steady and consistent and solid and. And you keep showing up, and then you're in people's lives year after year after year.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:35:04

So it's amazing. All right, any other marketing tips you want to leave us with before we move on?

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:35:08

No, this is great.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:35:09

All right, perfect. All right, so question I ask all the guests that come on is, what is your favorite part of a wedding?

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:35:18

I love this question. I have a really good answer, actually. Okay, perfect. And it's maybe not what you think, but it's not like any particular event in the day, but it is at the end of my event, because I'm a photographer, I'm a bit more involved in their lives and in their day. I truly love feeling like I have been adopted into a new family by the end of a wedding day. And so for me, it even happened this last weekend. I literally was in Milan yesterday morning, so I was in Italy this past weekend. I shot a wedding, and the couple was my age, and they host these parties in New York, and I already, like, I'm almost guaranteed gonna be invited to their next party because I am now not just their client, but their vendor friend.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:36:03

You know, they're not even their vendor, but their friend friend.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:36:05

Yeah.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:36:05

So that's what happens. I think I get converted from what they think is just, like, a good photographer to like, oh, this guy's coming to our pancake party. Or, you know, I've been invited to 4 July with the family that I love, and. And I went with them, and I think that's something about being adopted in to a greater family. Like, I really love. And my family's great, too, but I think I want to have lots of families out there, you know?

Kevin Dennis [: 00:36:29

Yeah, no, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. I always joke. I always joke with the couples when we're kind of in the planning phases with them. I'm like, and I tell, you know, the bride, I'm like, you're going to spend more time on your wedding day with your photographer than you are your husband to be, you know, so. So you really got to make sure you like this person, and that's what I. And that's because I've seen it go wrong so many times. But when it's right, like what you're talking about, they. They're part of the family.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:36:55

They're. The aunts are joking with them, and everyone. Everyone knows. Yep, dad. Yep, yep, yep, yep.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:37:03

Yeah. My favorite, favorite compliment I got at a wedding was in Vail with Jennifer Fletcher. And the father, his name was Tom. I think he was the father of the groom, and he wasn't getting as much attention. It was really, like the bride's wedding and the bride's family's wedding, you know? But this guy Tom was kind of quiet and a little like, salt of the earth kind of like guy. And I kept being like, tom, how you doing, man? You okay? And he's like, I'm good. At the end of the night, he was like, phil. He's like, I only know two names at this wedding.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:37:31

He's like, you and the groom. That's it. And I was like, oh, man, that's amazing. And he's like, you're a good guy, man. He's like, thank you. And that's it. I just, like, I had charmed Tom, and I was the only other name that he knew at that entire wedding, and it made me feel so good. I was like, oh, I love this.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:37:47

That's exactly what I want, is just to, like, make other people feel great and then be, like, in their lives.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:37:53

Well, because we got to have fun. I mean, in the end, I mean, you had fun working the wedding, and you. And that's part of it. You probably saw him not being so interactive, and it's easy to go, hey, how's it going? You know, how simple is that?

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:38:04

Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just checking in.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:38:06

So, yeah, 100%. So. All right, Phil, how do we connect with you? How do we find you?

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:38:12

I'm pretty much everywhere at Philip vn. P h I l l I p v, as in victor, n as in Nancy. It's Philip Vienne weddings on Instagram. Philip Vienne for my personal stuff. That's it. You can just google Philip Vienne, and I show. All right, perfect.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:38:29

I like that. Have you trademarked Philip Vienne?

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:38:33

No, but it's the best comma of letters. Nobody uses it. There's not that many Philips, the two L's. No, Vn. Vn is my last name. Van Nostrin. But anytime some new social media thing comes in, I could sign in, and Philip Vn is always free. It's a good letter combo.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:38:48

That actually is. That works perfect. So.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:38:50

All right.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:38:51

So, Phil, we can't thank you enough for being here. Sharon, you're out of the box marketing ideas. I mean, it just. Hopefully it's going to make people think about, what can I do differently? How do I develop relationships? How do I, you know, it's not just about. I call it, you know, pass out the business card and pray that someone hires you. No, no, that's not what it's about. It's about developing, in the end, developing relationships and getting yourself out there. So we can't thank you enough, sir.

Phillip Van Nostrand [: 00:39:17

Beautiful.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:39:18

Thank you to our listeners. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of mind your wedding business podcast, brought to you by Weddingiq. I hope you've enjoyed listening to this episode. Please get in touch with me. If you have a topic you would like for me to cover, or if you are in the area of your business you would like you're struggling with, let us know. We'll be happy to help. I encourage you to check out our other episodes on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you're a fan, we'd love to hear from you, and we'd love for you to subscribe to our podcast and leave a review.

Kevin Dennis [: 00:39:50

It helps others find our podcast so they can learn from our guests, too. Thanks again for listening.